Kitchen Advice

If I were to blame anything for the slippery slope of home renovation we're about to careen down, it would be the microwave.

"What's the big deal?" you might ask. "So your wall microwave broke. So replace it. Done."

No. Not done. Never done.

Our appliances, when we moved into the house, were ancient. The brand, Admiral, no longer exists. The user manuals are yellowed with age, stuffed into those transparent folders you can clip into three-ring binders. The font even seems musty. This didn't bother us, because when we shuffled into this house we figured it was the perfect canvas for upgrading them ourselves over the years; like so many things you think you can't live with, though, it slowly became less and less of a big deal until after a while we actually said to each other, "Eh, it WORKS, mostly, a lot of the time. Let's go to Egypt instead." 

Last year, for Valentine's Day, Kevin and I finally gave each other a new dishwasher, because the plastic-over-metal racks in the old one were wearing thin and rusting, which we convinced ourselves would poison the beans. Also, it was so loud, we couldn't run it after midnight without risk of being arrested for a noise violation. But the real dinosaur I'd been yearning to kill was the wall oven -- yes, the same wall oven that once spent a month living in someone's repair shop because it wouldn't heat up properly and left a beef wellington raw in the center after six hours on 400. (And the same wall oven that returned to its alcove working pretty well... but missing a knob.)

A few weeks ago, I got my chance. The microwave, which perches above our oven, abruptly died. And it was sudden. One day it heated up my leftovers just fine. The next it needed five minutes to bring a modicum of warmth to a chicken tagine, and two days later, corn muffins took ten minutes to heat from room temperature. Goodbye, ancient friend with the turntable that didn't turn; hello, sleek modern something with things that do things. Right?

Maybe. A cursory glance at what was available, and we realized gas ovens these days are all twenty-four inches wide both inside and out -- matching the current capacity of our oven, more or less, but not the width (ours is the standard 30-inches on the outside, but it's insulated enough that the actual cooking space is 23-24 inches wide inside). Slotting a narrower unit into our more cavernous space would look dumb, and it seemed stupid to spend all that money on an oven that is substandard in cooking space compared to what most home-buyers are used to having and/or wanting. Just because we don't cook our turkey in the oven doesn't mean other people won't want to, you know?

But, ah, to put in an electric oven requires a special line installed to power it. That's $500 right there. And that's where our imaginations started to run a little wild. Because, see, our kitchen doesn't have a pantry -- no long, tall cupboard that's ideal for dry goods, or which can be compartmentalized to give you a place to tuck brooms and mops (which currently live in the corner, propped up against the wall). And so we got to thinking, if we're replacing all this stuff, why not reconfigure as well? Let's spend several grand just to avoid dropping $500 on the special electrical line! Makes perfect sense.

Currently, our kitchen has a separate cooktop over a cabinet with a pull-out drawer and a fan in the range hood, and then a single wall oven with a microwave above it and two cabinets: one below the oven, and one -- divided into vertical slots, for things like cookie sheets and cutting boards -- above the microwave. 

And here is a photo of the room, from before we bought the house, and shot slightly in fish-eye to look larger.

 

We don't have a table; we have two black and chrome barstools, then of course high chairs, a small black bookshelf for cookbooks under that window and the one to its left, and then to the left of the doorway from which this photo was taken, a Crate and Barrel kitchen island against the wall, black, with a blond butcher-block top. Also, our fridge is taller and a bit wider, and black; the dishwasher, which you can't see, is also black.

So, option #1, which we'll call Big Drama, is this: 

-- Knock out the cooktop and cabinet directly beneath it (but not the cupboards on either side), and replace it with a freestanding gas oven range, which keeps the energy efficiency of gas. 

-- Buy a range-hood microwave (or whatever they're called) and install it where the cooktop's fan is now, because it is designed to function as both fan and microwave.

-- Knock out the cupboard beneath the oven (but keep the one above), and use that entire empty space to install a pantry with pull-outs, and a tall, slim gutter to the left into which we can tuck the brooms and whatnot.

-- Re-varnish the cabinets. I think I would also paint the new pantry's door panel with chalkboard paint, for shopping lists and for the beans' artistic fun when they get old enough not to try and snack on the chalk.

Option #2, which we'll call Boring Minimalism:

-- Replace the appliances but keep them where they are

-- Possibly still re-varnish the cabinets (one of them is cracked up top, and another, the previous owner's kid drew on it with green ballpoint pen and every time I belly up to that panel the green flower there smirks at me).

Here are the reasons Big Drama is giving me pause, and I'm hoping you wise folks out there have some words of wisdom for me on these scores:

1) Are wall ovens considered more desirable than the other kind? If we're keeping the microwave lofted, we're not forsaking counter space to do this, but I don't know if there's any kind of idealized value placed on having an oven in the wall rather than on the floor.

2) Do we think it's stupid to put an oven where a dude could possibly reach it? Or are we likely to find one heavy enough (or even lockable) to make that a moot concern?

3) We have a 36" cooktop, so we'd want to replace it with a 36" range. Those are terribly hard to find; so far we turned up a Kenmore that seems fine, but the oven itself is still only 30" (which we could live with but it's not as stylish); a Fisher Paykel, about whom I know nothing (I've read scathing reviews of their washing machines but can't find anything about their ovens) that has no digital readout of temperature but does at least have a timer, and is attractive; a mad expensive Electrolux that doesn't have a timer nor a digital readout for temperature, but has a gigantic oven; and an even more mad-expensive Dacor, which is similar to the Electrolux. We MIGHT have located a place that could help us preview the Fisher Paykel but we're not sure, and the others are probably not available to view. 

4) Is the pantry as desirable as we think it is? Right now our dry goods are stuffed into a double cupboard above the counter -- the one to the left of the fridge -- and then part of another cabinet above the toaster oven, which we keep on the counter to the right of the cooktop. I think the displaced frying pans and saucepans can go in the cupboards to the left and right of the range (drawback: no drawer) or in our kitchen island (drawback: not near the range), and the displaced baking trays and bowls in the cupboard currently beneath the oven can take whatever space the cookware doesn't occupy (one potential hiccup is the roasting pan, but we'll worry about that later), and basically everything can shift up and around now that the dry goods would all be in our nice long tall pantry. Tupperware could go in a higher cabinet, for instance. Does all that sound reasonable, or am I insane?

5) If we re-varnish the cabinets, how dark do we go? We've never been a particular fan of white cabinets, which I know is one option, and we could just keep them the same but I'm not really a light-wood person. We get nice natural light in the kitchen, so that helps the space feel big. Do we shoot straight to dark wood (like most of our furniture in the other rooms) or will that be too oppressive? Do we need to re-evaluate our stance on white cupboards?

I'm sure there are other questions, but right now these are the ones we're trying to deal with -- like, will we get a better oven and a better cooktop if we just keep them separate and continue making do with our lack of pantry? We feel a bit squeezed out of the space we have, some of which is because I don't think all the cabinets are being used as best they can be, because they're not really designed with dry goods in mind. Will we regret putting an oven on the ground that curious hands can touch, or are they all made so well that a pre-heating oven won't hurt them if they bump it? Are oven doors heavy enough that it's unlikely Liam will tug it open until he's old enough to know not to do it? 

We are making such a meal out of this. But at least when it's done, one way or another, we can then proceed to make all future meals on nicer appliances.

Comments

[Kathryn]

I grew up in a house with 4 small children, only one parent around constantly to watch us (the other traveled for work) and a gas oven on the ground, and none of us ever got burned.

[Beth C.]

I think a pantry is as big a deal as you two think. Having lived with and without, it is annoying as HELL to not have at least a smallish one.

As for the oven, most have pretty heavy doors that don't just fly open. I'm sure you can get a lock of some kind, but at the same time, ours was on the floor growing up, my sister's is now with her son and I've never heard of it being a problem there or with anyone else I know with a similar setup.

[Rach]

There are houses in existence without pantries? SACRILEGE.

If you're going to stay there for a little while longer and have to feed two beans with ever-increasing appetites, I would say to go for Big Drama. There's no use doing a basic tart up (as we, in the writing-about-home-design biz call it) unless your house is just for now.

[Kat]

We had a really loose door on the oven when my baby was into pulling things open so as a safety measure/precaution, I ended up buying a heat proof safety lock and putting the fire grate safety screen in front of it when it was hot.

Now we've renovated and my new oven hardly feels hot to the touch even though she's 4 now and knows not to touch it anyway she doesn't always realise it's on, so that's handy. You should check with the sales people if you can, which model makes a 'cool to the touch' door etc, I know they're a little more expensive but we thought it was worth it.

Go for Big Drama change, we started out with a little 'tart up' and by the 10th week of fixing things up we realised we should have just committed to what would have ended up the cheaper all-in-one-go big fix!

[Kim N]

Go big, for sure! If you are going to tear stuff up (and are planning on being there for a while), you might as well just do it once.
I have a 36" Dacor range. The kids would have to big pretty big to pull it down (and it does have a lock). We found ours on Ebay. It was a discontinued model, and we got it at a nice discount. Yes, we have to bend over to get stuff in and out, but we can fit anything we want to cook into AND have more counter space.
YES on the pantry. As the boys grow up, you will be buying more stuff (at least, we do)and you'll want a place to put it.
I vote darker cherry on the cabinets.

[S]

One benefit to the combined range/oven is that you can rest heavy things you're taking out of the oven on the stovetop while you close the oven door or get a better grip or whatever. And if you're cooking something that starts on the range and then finishes in the oven, it's handy not to have to walk across the room with a screaming hot skillet. I vote Big Drama.

[Sarah]

Go big or go home! If you're going to do a kitchen upgrade, do it for real and go with Big Drama. It will be a pain in the ass while its happening, but so much better in the end.

And go ahead and keep the white cabinets. The black and white tile is very vintage, and if you have black appliances, the white cabinets make a nice offset. Or, if you're considering dark wood, maybe do glass front on the tops where your "show off dishes" live. Keep the room from getting too dark.

[Dan]

I'm very pro-pantry. When we moved into our house, the family had a table in the kitchen for eating, even though the dining room was very open and no more than three feet from the kitchen table. The fridge was in a nook by the back door and the bathroom and the "pantry," such as it was, was the closet in the front foyer. We presume they hung their coats on hooks at the top of the stairs to the basement. So we removed the kitchen table (it was attached to the wall), put the fridge in that corner of the kitchen and made the fridge space a much-needed pantry.

I have alerted Casey to this post and will also show it to Bryan -- he's addicted to home renovations (he's doing his fourth now: condo, suburban house, condo and currently 170-year-old farmhouse).

[Abby]

Avoid the Fisher & Paykel. We have a fancy schmancy F&P dishwasher and it's been a headache. It's beautiful, but we've had numerous problems with it over the past three years.

On the other hand, when my kid pushed a random configuration of buttons on it, it started playing the Star Spangled Banner. If entertainment value is part of your decision, you may want to consider it.

[Karen]

I agree with Big Drama, and we have a lock on our oven that was purchased at BRU. My 22-month old loves to push it down into lock position, so even if I forget to do it, she's sure to run over and help.

Also, we do a lot of coaching on "hot" and "no touch" which seems to effectively keep her out of range when I'm removing something.

[Alice]

Pantries are awesome. You definitely should have one. And don't forget that your range could have a drawer under the oven (if you go with the Kenmore or similar), where you can store roasting pans and the like.

As for the cabinets, have you thought about painting? I think a black or dark grey (like in these photos: http://bit.ly/aMEHHS) would look awesome. You get enough light that it wouldn't seem overpowering. Personally, I prefer that over stained cabinets.

[Stephanie]

I say go with big drama assuming you can afford it. I think wall ovens are odd, so if I were buying a house (ha ha ha ha, snort, in the SF Bay Area, right... chortle) a floor oven would be the better selling point.

Also, when rearranging cabinet contents? Why not leave the Tupperware low? At least if the beans pull that out it is just a pain to pick up. It's unlikely to hurt them. Once they start playing the "empty the lower shelves/cabinets; watch Mom/Dad put it all back; empty the lower shelves/cabinets" game you might be happy it is just Tupperware down there and not, say, something that can easily turn into the "hit the metal bowl with the wooden spoon and make a racket" game.

[Alyssa]

I apologize for being kind of off-topic, and I hope this isn't creepy, but Heather, I think I'm living the Midwestern version of your life!

I found Dancing Brave after I noticed a quick sentence on your Twitter feed at GoFugYourself.com (my favorite procrastinating-at-work site for years) that referred to your two infant sons. I said "Wait, what the WHAT?!," did a search, and found this blog. I read a little of your archives and now I'm wondering if I may be your Chicagoland clone!

Some evidence:

1) I got pregnant with twins in January 2009 after our second IVF attempt. Our babies, Will and Holly, were born on 9/9/09.

2) I had ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, too (though after/because I got pregnant). That sh*t's no fun. They tell you not to avoid salt with OHS, but somehow salt was all I wanted then!

3) Our smaller baby, Holly, our Baby A, was the one who initiated labor by breaking her water sac. This was to get away from her brother, who weighed almost two full pounds more than she did at birth and was literally squashing her (she had a dent in her head from him leaning on her). She's still our scrappy, feisty, undauntable girl.

4) My dear, hardworking husband also had baby-related night terrors, where he was SURE there was a baby in the bed with us. He'd jump up in a panic and then I'd wake up and find him bent over and murmuring to a pillow. You seemed to be a lot more patient with it than I was---even though I knew he couldn't help it, I'd be pretty patient the first two times, but by the third awakening of the night, I would get kinda Kinison-esque.

5) I have something very much like your "101 Things in 1001 Days" list---we call it our Stalinist 5-Year Plan ("In Soviet Russia, plans make YOU!"), and it (almost scarily!) includes many of the same items as your list (eg, running a half marathon, wearing my night guard more often, making wills, hosting a block party for our neighbors someday).

6) After five years in our house, we also are only now contemplating the work that needs to be done in our kitchen (can I teach myself to install a tile backsplash, or should we just hire a pro?). And we also have no pantry, which is a truly wretched situation. I agree with the previous commenters in voting for Big Drama.

Anyway, I'm very glad I found this blog, and just wanted to write to wish you all well. It's been wonderful to read about worries and triumphs that are so familiar (I too have wondered "Should I feel guilty because I don't tend to think about the babies much when I'm at work?" I came to the same conclusion---"Uh, nah...."). It's clear from the way you write how much you love and delight in your beans and your life; best wishes to you and yours!

[Alyssa]

(Oops. That should be "to avoid salt," not "not to avoid salt." Sigh. Yes, I work as a copy editor, why do you ask?)

[jen]

With "Boring Minimalism" you'll be wasting time and money. "Big Drama" is about as minimal as you should go. The current set up with the wall oven and microwave in the eat in side of the kitchen is completely outside of your work triangle. Bringing them in to the functional part of the kitchen and adding a pantry is the best way to go.
I'm concerned you are not aware of what "revarnishing" entails. The current varnish has to be removed via chemicals and/or sanding for new STAIN and varnish to take properly. These cabinets are not worth that time and effort. Painting (AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NOT WHITE!!!) will still require some prep work: rough up the surface with light sanding, determine if the varnish is oil or water based, then choose paint accordingly. Oil based paint is going to last you much longer than latex, which will probably look pretty bad within 6 months if you are hard on a kitchen.
Honestly, the kitchen needs a lot more updating than this. If you should decide to truly go dramatic (full redo) be sure to get some professional advice (not the Lowe's kitchen designer) to ensure you are getting the full potential function out of your space.

[Heather]

We're going to be using a contractor, so he's pretty clear on what we mean by revarnishing -- the trick here is that while we plan to live in this house a few years more, we're going to have to move out of it eventually because we will outgrow it. So we're toeing the line between making it BETTER but not spending the kind of $$$$ that would make it Our Dream Kitchen because we won't be living here more than a few years. Does that make sense?

[jen]

Sorry for speaking down to you, just trying to be clear and helpful. Still, be sure to compare cost of labor to make them better compared to cost of new cabinets. Unless the contractor is a family friend labor is the most expensive aspect of any job. Putting that money into new cabinets (even if they're not your dream cabinets) to upgrade to a more modern kitchen is going to pay off when you go to sell the house.
I have a Big Drama-er suggestion for you: Change the appliances as you mentioned (it's a good idea to go stainless even though the other pieces are black); paint the existing base cabinets a color (not black or white); replace the wall cabinets (the one above the peninsula needs to be wider) with a modern, blond wood, opague glass front cabinet (think IKEA); also replace the entire wall oven cabinet (do not keep the existing top cabinet) with the same modern, blond wood pantry cabinet w/ wood door instead of glass; replace the white tile with a marble/granite 12" tile (backsplash is not necessary, just a good eggshell paint, tile behind the stove if at all--consider glass tile here); add a very simple stainless knob to all the cabinet doors; and lastly, when you repaint the kitchen be sure to paint the underside of the soffet (where the cabinets abutt at the top) the same color as the wall, this is not ceiling.
Guess I'm done making friends here. Good luck and enjoy, whatever you decide to do.

[bettina]

Pantry. Seriously, pantry... I will never *not* have a pantry again. Mine is a large walk-in-closet-sized space that is big enough to fit a large freezer below all the shelves, but if I had to move, I'd always at least have a tall cabinet for dry goods storage.

It helps you keep track of what you have in stock easier, because you can see everything, without having to crane your neck into the back of an ill-lit floor-level shelf. The extra room (if you buy a big one) means you can buy larger quantities, so those "what do you mean, I'm out of flour" moments happen maybe twice a year.

In fact, I'd ditch the mop-and-broom storage to somewhere else, in order to maximize dry-good storage... but then, food is a hobby of mine... as my waistline testifies, sadly. Heh.

[Heather]

@Jen: I'm sorry! I didn't mean to sound sarcastic with you earlier -- I actually meant it very straightforwardly, in the sense that, we told our contractor what we were thinking and used "re-varnishing" and he was like, "I know what you're referring to." I didn't at all mean to sound like I was going all Uh-DUH on you. I really appreciate all your suggestions!

We quite like the white tile and I'm not sure we have the budget to pour into replacing the countertops, but I had totally forgotten about IKEA as a kitchen option -- thank you! We are totally going to price out new cabinets and compare that to the contractor's bid to work with the existing ones. And I love the idea of some opaque glass here and there to break up the array of wood. Question: When you say the "peninsula," do you mean the counter that extends toward the oven, between the sink and the breakfast area? My question about expanding that cabinet: The stuff we would store to the left of it wouldn't be terribly accessible; the existing cabinet is already a bit of a stretch if I stand at the corner where the counter turns the corner to extend into the peninsula.

@Alyssa: I love that you are my Chicago doppelganger! I hope you'll keep checking in here, because I'd love to hear more about how your twins are doing!

And to everyone, thank you so much for the feedback and ideas!

[Beth]

Hi there,

I had to respond to your kitchen post. As someone who just renovated our kitchen (BIG DRAMA) , I am very much in favor of your Big Drama option. For several reasons:

--We also replaced our wall oven and separate cook top with a slide in range. We moved things around a bit more, resulting in our microwave having counter space under it (it was previously wall mounted over the oven, like yours). Not having to take something out of the microwave and WALK to an available counter was a huge difference that I didn't anticipate. You will have your cooktop right there, plus the counterspace on either side. I also think wall ovens seem more dated, so I think changing to a range would increase the value of your kitchen. Stainless steel would look good with your other black appliances.

--I also have twins, who are now 6. I think between the usual repetition of "HOT! HOT!" and perhaps some oven door locks like others suggested would be fine. I wouldn't let that concern affect your decision.

--We changed a small pantry closet (with very narrow door) to a slide in cabinet pantry and I LOVE it. It is amazing how these changes in your kitchen will positively impact your day to day quality of life. Like someone else said, I hate for you to sacrifice space to include that narrow space for your broom and mop, but if you don't have another handy option I think you would really love it. That type of thing bugs the crap out of me - being able to more easily access things you use often makes life so much better.

--LOVE the idea of painting the pantry doors with chalkboard paint.

It sounds like you have a good compromise between total reno and making improvements that will help sell you house in a few years.

If you want to see before and afters of my kitchen (which has kind of similar layout) you can see them on my FB page. That album is open to everyone - I'm Beth Swann Compton there.

Good luck, and congrats on the babies once more. Having twins gets better and better every year! It is such a blessing (while also being the hardest thing in the world).

Beth

[jen]

No offense taken.
I cause people this kind of stress on a regular basis, and I'm sure it comes across better in person with pictures and drawings than over the interwebs.
Yes, that is the peninsula. Considering that corner of countertop probably isn't very convenient either it might be best to have a wall cabinet that runs the entire height from countertop to ceiling. Then you will have some easier access storage and more for items you don't use on a regular basis.
If you should decide to get base cabinets installation will wreak havoc on your countertops. Then you may want to consider a different material. It's not so much the look of the white tile as it is the function that may be less ideal for potential buyers.
It breaks my heart to see people drop a pile of money into a project that could have been better invested. I read GFY everyday and just found this site last week (sniffled at your letters to your Beans), so for some weird reason I care. Hope to have been a little bit helpful.

[Heather]

Beth, your kitchen looks FABULOUS! How long did all that take?

[courtney]

The pantry is a BIG deal. We just moved into a house with one, and of all the things I was so excited to have in this house, after being here 5 months it still amazes me how nice it is to have a pantry. I don't think having the oven down low will be as big of a deal as you think. Yeah it's nice to have it at eye level, but 99% of houses around where I live have them down low. THe only pain is the 3 times a year we do a ham or turkey, lifting that 18lb's of meat out of the oven that low. Other than that no big whoop.

[Alyce]

It' so easy spending someone else's money, so I say go big drama all the way. Of course I'd actually want someone who's a professional to give me a sense of what my space could be with 3 or 4 real iterations and decide from there. Because while I like big drama that pays off, I'd hate to spend the next few years lamenting that I didn't do it right. I guess that makes me in favor of modicum of drama.

[hannah]

Take this with a grain of salt, that grain of salt being that I live in the midwest (Minneapolis), and therefore have a different real estate market as a basis for comparison as to what "normal" is, but I think the pantry is not such a big deal. It seems like you have plenty of cabinet space, if not quite as gathered and organized as a pantry would be, so I don't think not having a pantry would be a deal breaker if you were trying to sell the house.

Also, for sure check out Ikea kitchens. You can do a lot for not so much money. And as to the oven thing, I have never liked wall ovens, because in my experience they break a lot. A nice floor oven will not get hot to the touch on the outside, nor fly open, and you can get them with a built in lock where you either slide a lever closed to latch them or just press a button and it somehow magically locks itself, if you're really concerned about the boys attempting to bake each other.

Personally, if it were me, I'd do the things that made the most every day difference in my life and say screw everything else. If just getting new appliances is what you really want (and that certainly will be something that can make your life a little better every single day) go for it, and don't overly worry about the rest. Worrying about trying to optimize the money you spend renovating, or weighing how much of a return an improvement might hypothetically yield if and when you sell the house will just make you batty.

Good luck!